Research:Finesmithing

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Theory

My personal hypothesis on how the quality of the product is determined:

  • first a check against cr.arts.design to determine what kind of quality tier you are aiming at
  • after this the second forging check against silver or gold smithing to see if you succeed in realizing the idea you had as result of the first design check
  • sculpting checks silver/gold against the design check determined difficulty of the unsculpted jewellery piece (this is because I usually only need 1 to 3 attempts on gold products for sculpting but failed > 30 sculpting attempts on a silver jewellery piece; my gold is 50 points better than my design, but silver is 110 points lower than design); so if your design bonus is lower than the silver/gold bonus, you will succeed quickly in finishing it, but if your design bonus is higher than your gold/silver bonus you will have a hard time finishing sculpting since the set difficulty of the jewellery is too high; but perhaps TM chance then?
  • polishing difficulty are just simple checks of tools bonus against hard coded difficulties which are determined by the jewellery piece overall (the smaller the item, the harder the check AND the better the quality of the jewellery piece forged, the harder the difficulty)

--Xorphitus 17:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Mirodar (05/09/2021) - Evidence to support some of the above hypothesis. 1) Spit forged 10 rings with 200 bonuses and Mirodar sculpted some of them with 300ish bonuses while Haize sculpted others with 450ish bonuses. Every ring came out to be a "simple" ring. 2) I forged a ring with 300ish bonuses and Spit forged one with 200 bonuses. Spit then tried to sculpt both. The ring forged by spit was sculpted in 54 tries (1 said no progress, 21 said not finished yet). The ring sculpted by Mirodar was finally finished after 208 tries with 85 "successful" attempts.


Description and material versus value, post-sculpting change

Gorain (2023-04-29) - It looks different items of the same material and quality description can be valued at different prices (there are fixed price points for each item, so given a couple of rough valuations it can be determined which actual price it would fall under). e.g. I have had three different well-made platinum nibs value at A$15, A$19.50 and A$27.75 and also had a well-made, very well-made and masterfully made platinum nib all value at A$27.75. I will provide an update later with the actual distribution of prices at a later stage.

Description copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum
Sculpted, not polished Polished fully with files Polished fully with cloth
 cauliflower brooch This rough disc of <metal> looks rather like a cabbage, but not a great deal. It's possible it could be a

cauliflower. 

 evoking memories brooch A <metal> disc bears a wreath of cabbage fronds in low relief, evoking memories of the prevalent flora of the Sto Plains.  ~
 elegant recalling brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. 
 affectionate brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. From beneath a frond at the centre of the disc, a pair of eyes peek shyly out with an affectionate gaze.  $3.14 $4.40 $21.04 $4.56 $5.55 $26.11 $10.05 $11.72
 adoring brooch An elegant <metal> disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze.  $3.39 $3.32 $5.42 $23.89 $4.85 $4.91 $7.08 $24.79 $10.04 $9.05 $11.45
 snuggle brooch An elegant gold disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze. They almost seem to follow you around the room, and the overall effect is of a piece of jewellery that doesn't need a pin and is held on simply by a pure and overwhelming desire to snuggle up to its wearer. 
 shapeless leaf ring Not entirely circular and not very well polished, a <metal> band bears a recognisable leaf shape at thefront. 
 uncircular ring A simple, not entirely circular <metal> band wraps around the wearer's finger, bearing a stylised oakleaf as a jewel at the front. 
 single leaf jewel ring This ring is a simple band of <metal>, with a single detailed oak leaf set as a jewel at the front. 
 falling leaves ring A deeply incised pattern of oak leaves wraps entirely around the <metal> band of this ring, as though falling endlessly from a tree in the autumn. 
 autumn day ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen oak leaves overlapping around its length. Lovingly detailed as they are, the leaves could have been picked from the ground on an autumn day. 
 summer ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen intricately detailed oak leaves overlapping around its length. A single acorn, done in low relief, sits cradled between the leaves in the centre. The leaves look as crisp and fresh as if they'd been plucked just that moment from a flourishing tree in the height of summer. 
rather poorly made
well made nib
very well made nib
 masterful nib This is a masterfully made <metal> italic nib. 
beautiful nib
 shapeless chain A half-dozen fairly shapeless <metal> stars dangle from an unfashionably long and rather clumsily made chain. 
 evening sky chain A half-dozen largish <metal> stars, strung on a necklace, glint like the first stars of the evening sky. 
 shimmer chain A dozen twinkling <metal> stars, strung on a matching necklace, shimmer and draw the eye.  $7.95 $10.25 $17.80
 shimmering chain A slim, delicate <metal> necklace supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, each the size of a child's fingernail.  $7.73 $10.64 $11.77 $10.69 $12.20 $14.21 $23.23 $24.71 $25.91
 glints and twinkles chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching.  $11.11 $13.53 $15.63 $24.17 $26.93
 magical chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. Each has been lovingly shaped and polished, and the subtle variations in the metal lend each star its own individual magic. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching. 

Description and material versus value

Description copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper brass pewter bronze silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum
Sculpted, not polished Polished fully with files Polished fully with cloth
 cauliflower brooch This rough disc of <metal> looks rather like a cabbage, but not a great deal. It's possible it could be a

cauliflower. 

$0.80 $2
 evoking memories brooch A <metal> disc bears a wreath of cabbage fronds in low relief, evoking memories of the prevalent flora of the Sto Plains.  $0.80 $1 $2 $3 $3 $4 $8 $16 $1 $1 ~$2 $3 ~$16
 elegant recalling brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains.  $1.11 $1.88 $2.03 $2.82 $3.87
 affectionate brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. From beneath a frond at the centre of the disc, a pair of eyes peek shyly out with an affectionate gaze.  $1.77 $2.02 $2.54 $3.82 $5.10 $5.10 $5.10 $6.38 $11.50 $21.74 $3.68 $3.94 $4.47 $7.12 $8.45 $13.75 $6.62 $8 $9.37 $9.37 $9.37 $10.75 $16.25 $27.25
 adoring brooch An elegant <metal> disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze.  $2.43 $4.48 $5.76 $5.76 $7.04 $12.16 $22.40 $7.45 $8.77 $8.77 $10.75 $12.12 $12.12 $12.12 $13.50 $19 $30
 snuggle brooch An elegant gold disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze. They almost seem to follow you around the room, and the overall effect is of a piece of jewellery that doesn't need a pin and is held on simply by a pure and overwhelming desire to snuggle up to its wearer.  $23.12 $13.75 $15.12 $22
 shapeless leaf ring Not entirely circular and not very well polished, a <metal> band bears a recognisable leaf shape at thefront.  $2 $3
 uncircular ring A simple, not entirely circular <metal> band wraps around the wearer's finger, bearing a stylised oakleaf as a jewel at the front.  $3 $16 ~$16 $2 $16
 single leaf jewel ring This ring is a simple band of <metal>, with a single detailed oak leaf set as a jewel at the front.  $3.16 $21.08 $22.70 $5.25 $6.62 $8 $24.50
 falling leaves ring A deeply incised pattern of oak leaves wraps entirely around the <metal> band of this ring, as though falling endlessly from a tree in the autumn.  $3.82 $11.50 $21.74 $13.75 $24.35 $8 $9.37 $10.75 $16.25 $27.25
 autumn day ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen oak leaves overlapping around its length. Lovingly detailed as they are, the leaves could have been picked from the ground on an autumn day.  $4.48 $5.76 $7.04 $22.40 $7.45 $8.77 $10.10 $26 $10.75 $12.12 $13.50 $30
 summer ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen intricately detailed oak leaves overlapping around its length. A single acorn, done in low relief, sits cradled between the leaves in the centre. The leaves look as crisp and fresh as if they'd been plucked just that moment from a flourishing tree in the height of summer. 
rather poorly made $2 $3 $4 $16 $2 $3 $4 $16 $2 $3 $4 $16
well made nib $10.25
very well made nib $6.34 $7.62 $8.90 $12.10 $13.42 $14.75 $18.50 $19.87 $21.25
 masterful nib This is a masterfully made <metal> italic nib.  $8.32 $9.60 $10.88 $16 $17.05 $18.37 $19.70 $25 $26.75 $28.12 $29.50 $35 $46
beautiful nib $10.25 $22.25 $35.75 $37.12 $44 $55
 shapeless chain A half-dozen fairly shapeless <metal> stars dangle from an unfashionably long and rather clumsily made chain.  ~$4.20
 evening sky chain A half-dozen largish <metal> stars, strung on a necklace, glint like the first stars of the evening sky. 
 shimmering chain A slim, delicate <metal> necklace supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, each the size of a child's fingernail.  $10.11 $14.02 $18.37
 glints and twinkles chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching.  $11.43 $17.32 $23.87
 magical chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. Each has been lovingly shaped and polished, and the subtle variations in the metal lend each star its own individual magic. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching. 

Old values

Description and material versus value before 26th June

Description copper silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum copper silver gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum
Sculpted, not polished Polished fully with files Polished fully with cloth
 evoking memories brooch A <metal> disc bears a wreath of cabbage fronds in low relief, evoking memories of the prevalent flora of the Sto Plains.  $0.35 $1.75 ~$2.62 ~$2.62 $7 $14 $0.35 ~$2.62 $0.35 $1.75 $14
 elegant recalling brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains.  $19.20 $21.00 $6.37 $23
 affectionate brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. From beneath a frond at the centre of the disc, a pair of eyes peek shyly out with an affectionate gaze.  $2.37 $3.06 $4.20 $5.34 $5.34 $5.34 $6.48 $11.04 $20 $5.26 $5.96 $7.12 $8.28 $8.28 $9.45 $14.10 $8.47 $9.18 $10.37 $11.56 $11.56 $11.56 $12.75 $17.50 $27
 adoring brooch An elegant <metal> disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze.  $3.33 $4.02 $5.16 $6.30 $6.30 $6.30 $7.44 $21.12 $7.66 $8.36 $9.52 $10.68 $10.68 $10.68 $9.60 $12.47 $13.18 $14.37 $15.56 $15.56 $15.56 $16.75 $21.50 $31
 snuggle brooch An elegant gold disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze. They almost seem to follow you around the room, and the overall effect is of a piece of jewellery that doesn't need a pin and is held on simply by a pure and overwhelming desire to snuggle up to its wearer.  $7.26 $13.08 $18.37 $19.56 $19.56 $19.56
 shapeless leaf ring Not entirely circular and not very well polished, a <metal> band bears a recognisable leaf shape at thefront.  $1.75 $2.62
 uncircular ring A simple, not entirely circular <metal> band wraps around the wearer's finger, bearing a stylised oakleaf as a jewel at the front.  $2.62 $2.62 $14 $2.62 $14 $14
 single leaf jewel ring This ring is a simple band of <metal>, with a single detailed oak leaf set as a jewel at the front.  $3.27 $5.58 $19.44 $7.20 $21.60 $6.50 $7.75 $9 ~$24
 falling leaves ring A deeply incised pattern of oak leaves wraps entirely around the <metal> band of this ring, as though falling endlessly from a tree in the autumn.  ~$4.20 $5.38 $6.54 $8.40 $9.60 $10.50 $11.75 $11.75 $13 $28
 autumn day ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen oak leaves overlapping around its length. Lovingly detailed as they are, the leaves could have been picked from the ground on an autumn day.  $14.50 $15.75 $17 $32
 summer ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen intricately detailed oak leaves overlapping around its length. A single acorn, done in low relief, sits cradled between the leaves in the centre. The leaves look as crisp and fresh as if they'd been plucked just that moment from a flourishing tree in the height of summer.  $18.50
well made nib $10.75
masterful nib $14.75
beautiful nib $18.75
 shapeless chain A half-dozen fairly shapeless <metal> stars dangle from an unfashionably long and rather clumsily made chain.  $1.75
 evening sky chain A half-dozen largish <metal> stars, strung on a necklace, glint like the first stars of the evening sky. 
 shimmering chain A slim, delicate <metal> necklace supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, each the size of a child's fingernail. 
 glints and twinkles chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching.  $14.62
 magical chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. Each has been lovingly shaped and polished, and the subtle variations in the metal lend each star its own individual magic. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching. 

'Tankards'

The tankard value is not directly determinable through the value command, so two approximation methods are used:

- value in the Filigree general store and

- fencing result to Sol (on average)

Quality: gold white/red gold/electrum rose gold black gold platinum
tall&slender $7.62 : $ 8.23 $8.77 : $10.01 $  : $ $13.67 : $18.40 $  : $
short&sturdy $8.91 : $10.38 $9.97 : $11.90 $11.05  : $13.58 $14.47 : $20.15 $19.67 : $32.65
Costs: $10 $15 $20 $40 $80

Summary

As it seems now, tiny metal bars being forged, sculpted and polished into cabbage brooches, oak leaf rings and fountain pen nibs bear a small potential profit of averagely A$7 when you fence them to Sol and have about 220 bonus in jewellery valueing and are able to create 2nd best quality results on average and use silver and normal gold.

Metals which are more expensive mean a loss compared to normal gold/silver since the value increases in the exact difference of the material costs of tiny bars. Since you have higher fixing costs (when you damage the jewellery while sculpting/polishing) or aquire the bar from Master Weestone and pay 10% more this way, this leads to LESS value increase. Not to speak of the procentual value loss at the jewellery fence Sol, which is higher compared to actual value of the jewellery the higher the value of the jewellery is, so value loss is smaller with less valuable jewellery pieces i.e. silver and normal gold.

Same effect is noticed crafting larger items (chains of stars, wise owl statuettes, tankards) since the material costs rise quicker than the value increase UNLESS you have impressive skills in cr.arts.design and gold/silver to get high quality products there as well.

In short: Artificers Anonymous hopes for a further tweaking since using higher quality material should produce higher valued products and not mean an actual loss compared to normal gold or silver. And larger items are right now either too difficult for anyone trying at the moment or just are not valuable enough to cope the material costs. You may want to check the tankard table mentioned on the research site mentioned and wince in sympathy. --Xorphitus 19:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)



Description and material versus value

Pre 19th June:

Description gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum gold electrum red gold white gold rose gold black gold platinum
Sculpted, not polished Polished fully with files Polished fully with cloth
 evoking memories brooch A <metal> disc bears a wreath of cabbage fronds in low relief, evoking memories of the prevalent flora of

the Sto Plains. 

$0 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
 affectionate brooch An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. From beneath a frond at the centre of the disc, a pair of eyes peek shyly out with an affectionate gaze.  $3.84 $4.80 $4.80 $5.76 $5.76 $7.68 $9.60 $12 $12 $14.40 $14.40 $19.20 $16 $20 $20 $24 $24 $32
 adoring brooch An elegant <metal> disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze.  $5.76 $8.64 $8.64 $11.52 $14.40 $21.60 $21.60 $28.80 $24 $36 $36 $48
 uncircular ring A simple, not entirely circular <metal> band wraps around the wearer's finger, bearing a stylised oakleaf as a jewel at the front.  $0
 autumn day ring This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen oak leaves overlapping around its length. Lovingly detailed as they are, the leaves could have been picked from the ground on an autumn day.  $5.76 $14.40 $24
 evening sky chain A half-dozen largish <metal> stars, strung on a necklace, glint like the first stars of the evening sky  $0 $0 $0
 shimmering chain A slim, delicate <metal> necklace supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, each the size of a child's fingernail.  $3.84 $4.80 $5.76 $9.60 $12 $14.40 $16 $20 $20 $24
 glints and twinkles chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching.  $5.76 $7.20 $8.64 $14.40 ~$18 $21.60 $24 ~$30 $36
 magical chain A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. Each has been lovingly shaped and polished, and the subtle variations in the metal lend each star its own individual magic. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching.  $9.60 $24 $40 $40

Note: today (18.06.2010 at about 11:00) finesmithing was downgraded/changed. The research data presented below here is of historical interest only

Oak leaf rings

Sculpting Polishing (files) Polishing (cloth) Bonuses
Long Description Pass Fail Pass Fail Pass Fail Cr.sm.?? Cr.ar.de Cr.sm.bl.to Material Value
Not entirely circular and not very well polished, a silver band bears a recognisable leaf shape at the front. 2 0 3 5 5 0 208 192 179 Silver 0


Description and material versus value

All of these are for items that have been sculpted (and fixed if necessary), but not polished. Polishing appears to have no effect on the value (based on valuing and fencing two brooches with identical materials and descriptions--one fully polished, one still rough and unpolished).

Description electrum gold black gold rose gold red gold white gold platinum
An elegant circle of <metal> bears a pattern of cabbage fronds in low relief, recalling the tasty and loyal denizens of the Sto Plains. From beneath a frond at the centre of the disc, a pair of eyes peek shyly out with an affectionate gaze. $60 $40 $80
An elegant <metal> disc has been shaped to resemble a lovingly detailed cabbage, each frond picked out in low relief and a pair of eyes peeking shyly from the centre with an adoring gaze. $60 $60 $60 $90 $60 $120
A deeply incised pattern of oak leaves wraps entirely around the <metal> band of this ring, as though falling endlessly from a tree in the autumn. $40 $40 $60 $40 $90
This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen oak leaves overlapping around its length. Lovingly detailed as they are, the leaves could have been picked from the ground on an autumn day. $60 $60 $60 $90 $60 $60
This heavy, ornate ring consists of a thick band of <metal>, wrought in the form of a dozen intricately detailed oak leaves overlapping around its length. A single acorn, done in low relief, sits cradled between the leaves in the centre. The leaves look as crisp and fresh as if they'd been plucked just that moment from a flourishing tree in the height of summer. $80
A dozen twinkling <metal> stars, strung on a matching necklace, shimmer and draw the eye. $40
A slim, delicate <metal> necklace supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, each the size of a child's fingernail. $40 $40 $60
A slim, delicate <metal> chain supports a dozen shimmering, twinkling stars, the largest no bigger than a child's fingernail. The small movements as they hang from the necklace chain draw the eye, sending the subtlest of glints and twinkles across to anyone watching. $90 $120

Conclusion: For final value, platinum > rose gold > electrum = gold = black gold = red gold = white gold. Platinum offers the greatest potential profit, but rose gold is your best bet if you get low-value descriptions at all often. Quality matters, but amount of metal used might not (as chains of stars, which use very small bars instead of tiny ones, seem to value the same as oak rings and brooches for comparable quality).

Full disclosure: the $90 and $120 values were derived, not gotten from an "on the spot" value like the others (valued with a 300 bonus exactly). It appears that when you get a "close to the real value" result with jewellery, it's 95% of the "on the spot" value, while a "general area" result is 90% of the "on the spot" value. This seemed quite consistent, but may be dependent on bonus or something.