Dasquian's Plans for Theft

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(As logged by Kaea, 23 Aug 2010, made available with Dasquian's permission. Apologies if I've cut any context out - the log starts from where Dasquian started explaining)

There are also some Creator Posts available.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: We're discussing under the impression that it was changed to prevent harrassment by way of house emptying. Your comments on the PK channel earlier about "coming back to find your house stripped bare" implied that total annihilation of contents was the undesirable result of the ability to housebreak.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: before it wasn't 'some item theft' and now it isn't 'some item theft'

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, that is an interesting and incorrect interpretation

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Please enlighten us.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: The goal was to prevent all player-house theft

(Thieves) Faye wisps: why?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And it appears to be a rousing success

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because of an overall agenda to remove all ability for players to remove items from others

(Thieves) Faye wisps: why?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Which obviously hits you guys harder than most

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: It's not like those people signed up to be playerkiller, or anything.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: then why be a thief?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because it's called griefing

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: ah, so it's "all thieves can go pound sand"

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I have a question

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Actually its a part of the fabric of the game.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Has anyone played World of Warcraft? It's an MMO

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: there is a difference between theft and griefing

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: I have!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Maybe you have an item that's part of a set you quite like

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I've played it extensively.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: multiple 80's, raiding every week...

(Thieves) Cerveza wisps: yes i have played for years

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: if I wanted to play WoW I would go play WoW

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You can see where I'm going with this

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: but, equipment on there takes WEEKS to get.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Those items in WoW take months to acquire, items in here I just buy, kill and loot for, or shoplift.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: The point is that being unable to maintain possession of your inventory against a dedicated antagonist is not conducive to a fun PvP environment

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And maybe you've got the system grokked here Faye, but for a lot of people their items also took months to acquire.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: get more ad.pe?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Have you asked the playerkillers that?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so basically a fun PvP environment is one where we all play CTF?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Of course not Akaishi

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: with no stealing, thieves wont be having a fun Pvp environment

(Thieves) Faye wisps: all of them. Having their coins, weapon or crystal ball stolen is a great excuse for them to chase a sneaky git all over the disc to try and get it back.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I have no intentions of removing the theft mechanic and tactic: merely the ability to actually take and keep an item

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Its how Inige and I became friends.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: why would I steal it if I cant keep it, Das?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's part of PK, people know stealing happens yet they still sign up for PK

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: combat

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: For tactical or profit reasons

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: if you can't keep it you can't profit

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: There's no profit if I cant sell it.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Thrakkozz, and almost every PK dispute that goes nasty does so because looting happens

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And if it hasn't, it's about to

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: but not house robbery

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: looting is somthing that happens after they have died.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's because you don't know the plan Demonoid ;p Trust me when I say the only thing to be hit is taking and keeping items.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Why?

(Thieves) Venko wisps: Will there be more NPC locks/traps to compensate for the reduced need for PC locks?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: that's kind of a big hit.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Why Demonoid? Why is "looting something that happens after they have died"?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Does it have to be?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's an enormous hit

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: saying' looting' on here generally means corpse looting

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: When I think of looting, it's 'loot'ing a corpse.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: But Dasquian, if I cannot take and keep an item, can I take an item and give it to someone else to keep?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: but we get the point

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Look, this is how it goes down. You want to be able to take and keep items, and that is what I call griefing

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Maybe not everytime

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Well fine. If thieves can't be allowed to steal, we'll have to also take away inhumes.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: This is our job.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: But it's instituationalised and that's our fault, and I intend to change it

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: so will we be able to steal from houses but not keep the items?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: dansquian, we are *thieves*.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: we are not borrowers.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: so why is it disabled now and filch is not?

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Perhaps you could become farmhands, or something more socially useful.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: our purpose is to circulate value in society.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because I don't ever intend to disable theft commands

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Dasquian, I have a stolen set of strength gauntlets that I want to sell. I'll give them to Thrakkozz, and he'll give me 5 royals. Under your new system, will this be possible? WIll thrakkozz be able to use his new gauntlets, or will they be hot and a wasted purchase?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: neither a borrower nor a lender be

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: you just did

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Have you considered perhaps opening a little shop!

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Holy hell! Drakkos! When did you come back?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Drakkos?

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Like a moth to a flame, I am drawn to suffering.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, you cannot relocate an item Faye

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: However you can still sell it for money

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Oh he's spying on us

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: awesome, thieves that can... WHAT

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: taking an item from a phouse is legitimate theft with reciepts left

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Getting the juicy griefing.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: (Yes, I am entirely here to be listen to thieves)

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: if we can't keep an item how do we sell them for money

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: To. Be. Listen.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: I think he means you can fence it.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: But it will wind back in the owner's hands.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: where's the fun in that?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: The bottom line is that you guys all feel entitled to take and keep items as part of your IC raison d'etre, tradition, the PK culture, etc, etc. I appreciate that but I think it's fundamentally antisocial and none of those reasons are good enough to hold back what I see to be a long-term solution.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Fences are worthless, I want to sell strength gauntlets to my comrades.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: hooray, let's destroy the economy some more

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Anything you steal with theft commands can only be returned totheowner?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: what you see, but maybe not what everyone else sees?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I want to find myself with an expired permit and palm one from the next guy to pass.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: As part of this long term solution, all PK thieves will be given the option to have their PK flag reset, right?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Right?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Faye: you want to TAKE strength gauntlets FROM people

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And that is soon to be off the menu

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Yes sir.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: and people want to hunt you to get them back or buy them back

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: (Sure, you later sell them, but that's after you've deprived someone of them)

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's fun, it's the way it happens

(Thieves) Faye wisps: They're playerkillers. Thats why they can't have nice things.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Right, and unfortunately this is where we totally disagree

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: its' what you sign up for when you become a PK.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because I think your way of doing things inhibits the PK game

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Exactly

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: They all signed up to it, and we all signed up to it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: This is what I mean by tradition and established PK culture

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so when do the plush pumpkins show up in the square? we'll all dance to piccolo music!

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: what about killing? I'd rather be stolen from than killed

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes, you all signed up to it, but that's just an argument against change - of any kind. It's a non-argument

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I'm glad people are talking about the options anyway.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I'd like to hear more about that PK flag reset idea

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Dasquian, you are taking something away that is very core to who we are. We're not a level 300 person. We're a level 300 thief.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: It seems a compromise can't be reached on the housebreaking issue because stealing at all is viewed as greifing, rather than focussed, repeated and targetted stealing.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Sure - and I don't intend to take away theft

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: We have the legal right (and obligation) to steal.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Just the permanent relocation of items.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Please don't get rid of being able to keep stuff you filch and steal D:

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: define theft for us please

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: That is a logical fallacy.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: why only take away phouse theft then, why not take them all away right now?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: An IC argument Sprynx, that is trumped by gameplay concerns, sorry.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: P.S. plz dont take them all away :p

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: By stealing, we transfer ownership of the item.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Smile - that's the one thing I do intend to get rid of.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Listen man, the MUD is dying slowly as it is, you don't have to kill off the PK side of it in one swoop.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Then yes, sorry, you can't nick other people's stuff.

(Thieves) Venko wisps: Is this non-permanent stealing policy going to apply to corpselooting, too?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I guess wards are going out as well then?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: See, I don't see this as killing off the PK side of it. I see this as taking away all barriers to being PK.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I think playerkillers would disagree with you there

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Wards.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I'd like to hear more about that PK flag reset idea

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes - the status quo crowd, certainly

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: So you're effectively going to make all PK Thieves into PK Adventurers, because thieves steal.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because you are the guys who DID sign up despite the macho rough and tumble.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You can still steal, unless by steal you mean "take and keep"

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: that's what stealing IS!

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: It's like making PK inhumes null and void.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: How much research have you put into the fact that more people will go PK if this policy goes through?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Really all you are saying is: I want to take people's stuff and keep it. It's literally what you're saying and it's not acceptable.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Was there a comission and what were its findings

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: can we vote on how acceptable it is?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Dasquian, I rarely take anything from other players. Coins to repair in a smithy, weapons from someone trying to kill me. I presume it will still be possible to filch someones weapons in defense.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It is not conducive to a fun game, for everyone else, no matter how much you think you are lovable scamps.

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: So I just walked in on a conversation suggesting that PK thieves not get to keep what they steal, or not even steal? What a load of bullocks.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Yes, Dasquian! If I steal somebody's thing, I have every intention of keeping it.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Hang on, how about a compromise solution: Make a relatively easy to place ward that you can put on stuff you want to keep. If an item with that ward on it gets stolen, the thief can only sell it in a heavy shop like the BP weapon shop, and only the previous owner can keep it.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: So wards should be removed, right?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Anything that doesn't have such a ward is fair game.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Would that be a fair compromise?next

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Faye, it will be possible to use theft commands tactically.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Wards can be revisited, sure.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Warding is a huge part of most priests' games too

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: s/keep it/buy it back

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: suppose I have no intention of killing anyone, what use is it

(Thieves) Faye wisps: so people will put death wards on their weapons, so that when we try to defend ourselves, we're oceaned. Woo acn't wait :D

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: If theft isn't as severe, there's no need for wards to be excessive either.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Dasquian, we already have a system in place to prevent unwanted relocation of items.

(Thieves) Faye wisps that she nods in agreement.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Ad.perception.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's ridiculous we have this ward/filch arms race that results in lots, and lots of pissed off people.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: That's what I said, get more ad.pe

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Why not have more theft, more small bang wards going off, and more interaction?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: the reason for phouse theft being removed but other theft not being removed still hasn't been answered

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Who exactly are these pissed off people?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Dasquian your argument is such: Players don't like being stolen from, so we shall remove it. Guess what? I don't like being inhumed. Remove it. I don't like warriors warcrying me, remote it. I don't like witches throwing bees at me, or wizards shooting fire or whatever at me, I don't like priests casting all their rituals at me. Let's just take the game offline forever, to avoid all the things people don't like.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I could go filch someones gauntlets right now and not give them back

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Technical reason, Thrakkozz - this is the easy bit to do.

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: so really, pk thieves are only going to be effective in games of CTF?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: but I couldnt take them from a house and not give them back

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I've had a flat cap, dex gloves and a one-shot crossbow stolen from my sasswot alt in the past week

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I just accepted that it's part of PK life

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: oh my

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Who says players have to enjoy every aspect of being pk, it's optional.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I don't think I'm in the minority

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's what we sign up for

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No Wolphen, your PvE game is left entirely alone, and I don't intend to affect the flavour or unique style of the thieves guild as being centered around theft

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Is there proof that new people will go pk if this change is made?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Literally the only thing I want to remove is the ability to deprive someone of their inventory.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: If this is the only way, then every PK thief should be given the option to deflag themselves.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Why?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: PK would be a lot more boring and a lot less fun if it wasn't for the constant risk of losing your inventory

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Assassin's deprive me of my life. Will you remove that too please?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Seeing as though loss of life is pretty much a minor inconvenience

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Maybe

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: I like this game Das, wondering how many different ways you can phrase that same sentence before someone pays attention :p

(Thieves) Smile wisps: depriving someone of your inventory is stealing by another name, no?

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: but as a PK, i signed in to go rummaging around player houses, and i'm not ashamed to admit that i've furnished my house with entirely stolen items. where am i going to get a new couch now?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Dasquian I'd just like to say thank you for at least taking the time to discuss the plan with us and listen to our opinions.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I really appreciate it.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Sure - and I appreciate that you guys aren't happy with it and why.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: What will be the point of stealing from pks?

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Personally, I think that taking away the ability to permenantly steal something is lazy, no offense.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I don't think you get why it is...

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: It's not that I'm not happy with it - I just don't understand why it's being done

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think it wouldn't result in significant improvement to everyone's game.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: You could put PK items on a seperate quota.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: And in response to spontiff: loss of live is a minor inconvenience, as is loss of xp, and loss of an item.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: I want compensatory cake

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: mind explaining those technical reasons behind the phouse things please Das?

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Then make corpselooting impossible.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: You mean everyone except thieves.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so what happens if this completely fails

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Assassins can only inhume when contracted.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well Thrakkozz - disabling corpse-dragging and phouse theft is reasonably straightforward. the other stuff planned requires a bit more technical knowhow.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: then things will be almost exactly as they were

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: So can't thieves steal when their quota allows it?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: corpselooting is just another form of theft

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Corpselooting is worse than filch and steal imo

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's abusable sure, but theft nonetheless

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: why, Smile?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: If you use filch, you steal one item at a time

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: so why not wait until you are going to remove the other things?

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: its the same, they just happen to be dead

(Thieves) Smile wisps: And you take a risk every time

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Corpselooting requires no skillcheck. It's not a theft. You could code away from that, and nobody here would have grounds to complain.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: disabling corpse dragging didn't fix anything, if you die outside of AM, someone that drags your corpse so they can have your items, will just now loot them.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: let us burgle until at least you can do the other changes?

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: the risk being?

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: Exactly, sprynx.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: specifically, wards? them attacking you?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Sprynx, I see an issue. We have to make quota, so we steal some items from somebody. But because we can't keep the item, we have to sell it within a certain timeframe. If they log off and you can't get them to repurchase their item at the right price (ie. enchanted, deluded, stat item, perma, etc), you haven't made moneyback for your tax.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: No, I'm talking of a seperate quota for PK thefts only.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: would it be better if we filched the item, then killed you Smile?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: My change shouldn't affect quota at all.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: either way, you are dead, and you item is gone

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: At least it'd be IC.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: What happens to the item if they don't buy it back?

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: Im glad i've not got much time invested in my thief, is all. Not like people like thunder and faye, and Thrakk :/

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: indeed, thrakk

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: To whit: the plan is to essentially make all thefts "semi-real": the victim is temporarily deprived of the item (but can always get it back, somehow, probably at their cost), the thief "has" the item (but doesn't really), and can sell it for money.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: can we not just have burglary back until you make the other theft changes?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: hey dn't worry about me, its only the best 7 years of my life.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Pleeeeeeasee!

(Thieves) Faye wisps that she smiles and shrugs.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Taking someones entire inv through filch and steal is a lot more difficult, risky and time consuming than doing 'get all from corpse'

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: People can still chase people to get their stuff back, trade in the field, etc.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: That's why I believe corpse looting is worse

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: How are item prices decided?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: why should they trade in the field?

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: but I cant steal iron gauntlets from someone and us them, though, right?

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Dasquian, this method fails when we consider that player cost and disc cost are wildly divergent.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's not that difficult really

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Why should they buy the item back if they're going to get it back eventually anyway, Dasquian?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I think it's a ludicrous idea, but only because I've only ever seen a handful of people moaning about inventory loss in 6 years of playing.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I think you're fixing a problem that isn't there

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Akaishi: more money for the thief, less cost for the victim (the guild is cut out the equation). Also, friendly "test" steals.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: from the victim's perspective, why should they?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Dare I ask if crack will be involved at all in this 'Grand theft plan'?

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: someone has gotten picked on that has a high up in the hierarchy alt. I think.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: or is that still a sore subject?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Hahahahaha

(Thieves) Faye wisps: uh oh. Someone said the "c" word.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Carmine's on.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Sorry, the 6th anniversary of it's removal was recently, I had to mention it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Akaishi: because you're happy not to spend a bit extra? Or because it's your friend and he wants to give you the item back.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Friends cleanup removed Fiasco - I think we can forget about the whole safecracking thing for at least 10 years

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: Indeed, I have appeared.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: code us crack please Carmine!

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Dasquian we can already do that.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I'll give you cookies

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: if I stole and item from someone it is unlikely that they are my friend.

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: Fiasco wasn't working on it alone :P

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I believe Fiasco passed the project lead into another's hands.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Thunder, that's the point - I don't intend to change it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I am trying to reassure you that most of the things you do wouldn't actualyl change

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Just the bit where you have someone's stuff and they don't.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: You are changing it. You're making it worse for thieves and better for everyone else.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: That's what STEALING is.

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: Das, can I steal iron gauntlets from someone and wear them, under this new system?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I'm fairly confident that you're not familiar with "most of the things" we do, I'm sorry.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, yes. I am stopping you taking what you please ;p

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: You having their stuff and them not having it

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: I think its difficult to appreciate that with an abstract view of how it would work, without the details

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's the entire point.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's a rather large downgrape

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: so its probably seeming worse than it might

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Can you make it so that assassin's don't _actually_ inhume us?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: That's what we call 'theft'

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: That'd be _wonderful_.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I think that's what the main problem is.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: So annoying, those inhumes.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I udnerstand Ilenore - it's not too complicated but enough to not be worth explaining now.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: I agree :p

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Totally disrupts my playing enjoyment.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, Demonoid.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: was just pointing out

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Dasquian, is it possible under your new plan to steal iron gauntlets from some spod assassin and wear them for my own benefit?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: (Sorry, processing questions as I see them).

(Thieves) Faye wisps: sorry was being repetitive

(Thieves) Smile wisps: It's like having a teacher standing over you at nursery making you give everything back

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: Das, can I steal iron gauntlets from someone and wear them, under this new system?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Er, Ok had that question three times now ;p

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: See above answer!

(Thieves) Demonoid wisps: I see it now. thanks.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Isn't the answer "Not for long"?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: which one

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I'd say that when assassins inhume us, they only temporarily deprive us of a life, and it'll find its way back.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: (it was no)

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: so if burglary is eventually going to be brought back, why get rid of it now? you havent gotten rid of filch.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Don't give him ideas.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Please.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: or did I read that one wrong and burglary is completely gone?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so theft is only useful to get money which is worthless because the economy is horribly broken to begin with?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Life-taking inhumes are less troublesome for me because lives - like money - has hardly any capability for sentimental value and is entirely replaceable.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: lives directly equate to money, of which there is essentially an infite amount

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: infinite :/

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That said I could consider removing them because getitng killed out of the game sucks royally.

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: Indeed.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Excellent, so there's a possibility to remove lifetaking inhumations.

(Thieves) Venko wisps: If you're getting killed out of game, you're doing it wrong.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I'm satisfied.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: I found a perfect compromise.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Sure, but I'd hope you;d be above tit-for-tat removals.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: how about tit for tit

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: Thieves will stop stealing on a permenant basis, and the creator team will buy all PK Thieves WoW accounts.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: depends on whose tit

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I'd look at it as a separate issue and -like this - if it was the best thing to do to make the game better, I'd do it.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: If I may ask, what prompted this change?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: screw wow, I want to burgle goddamit!

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: I don't see it so much tit for tat as "While we are getting rid of things people hate..."

(Thieves) Smile wisps: People hate a lot of things. Can you imagine if we got rid of all of them

(Thieves) Faye wisps that she agrees with Yoinkles.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's been in the pipes for years now Thunder.

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: its an experiment to drive Thrakkozz to insanity

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I want to tell a little story. It'll be short, don't worry

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Can you program tumbleweed npcs to roll around?

(Thieves) Ilenore wisps: or was that the other way around

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: It's been under discussion for a long time.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I hate Tique, we have to get rid of him.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I hit insanity a long time ago

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: That doesn't answer my question.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Tique sucks royally and negatively impacts the playtime of many players.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: (beardrash)

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I will see what we can do Faye

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I found this MUD and looked down the list of character types to find "safecracker". It was totally different than anything I'd seen on other MUDs, which is why I chose it.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: ;p

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: my point in saying this is this: Why do we want to make this place more like another place?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: So is it in the pipes to make every aspect of playerkilling enjoyable for all players?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: We don't, and our individuality is indeed a good thing.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: But likewise, not everythign we do differently is right ;p

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: but you just got done comparing your new plan to WoW

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's the plan, thunder

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Believe it or not we're trying to make the game better ;p

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: sounds boring

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: to which I say again, if I wanted to play WoW I would play WoW

(Thieves) Faye wisps: these are big changes with a significant impact on the playerkilling dynamic. I hope there will be an option to reset PK status in there, as the PK game will be totally unlike what we applied for.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Akaishi - that's because it's something WoW does right that we don't.

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: if i may, has anyone ever played EVE online, where it's entirely legal to steal EVERYTHING from another player with no consequences from the admin?

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: and people play it for entirely that reason?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I know a fair bit about it Wolphen. I think it's right for that game.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Hasn't there always been a line between acceptable PKing and Griefing?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's also the most vicious, brutal MMO I've heard of ;p

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: There's never a clear line, Smile.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: How about this Dasquian, instead of changing pks, make a new class, call sparring or whatever you want, which is fun for everyone. That way pks can still be aggressive and nasty, which is what a lot of people enjoy about this game, which you don't seem to understand.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: That's because you haven't played Griefdown - Grief of Griefers

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: There are always shades of grey, because it's based on levels of personal enjoyment

(Thieves) Smile wisps: EVE online is for ron paul supporters

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: It's mostly about griefing

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: (which are subjectve)

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: half the time around here it seems like people would rather be playing Quake

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: So players could spar, but do nothing else, which is essentially what you're talking about.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: And icelandic bankers

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: those too

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Thunder could be on to something here

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: If the "solution" was to introduce a third state of PKing, then really that would suggest we haven't solved the "problem".

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's only a problem as viewed by you though

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: problem belongs in REALLY BIG quotes

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Isn't CTF there for people who want to fight other players but not go PK?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: The problem is only that you think there is a problem.

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: well, really, how much have a player base have you lost because of these problems?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Impossible to tell, Wolphen.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I still don't see why we can't just have a 'This Item Is Important To Me' ward, and this change only affecting those items

(Thieves) Carmine wisps: Maybe the problem is that there is a problem and also that you don't think there is ;)

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: an intermediate between PK and NPK would solve your problems

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: How can we possibly quantify the number of people who quietly went "not for me" when looking at this game's culture and style?

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: It's pretty easy to tell the player base you will lose, though, if you make certain changes...

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: When its fun for everyone, what would be left besides sparring. Instead of stripping down PKs until theres nothing left it seems easier to create a third class.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I thrive on the nastiness, aggression, and risk of yesterday's PKing. I'm not alone in that.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: How can you quantify the number of people who WILL go PK because of this change?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: You're just making wild guesses at what the 'playerbase' wants without consulting it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I appreciate that Faye, I know lots of you liek the really hard-core elements.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: that's what PK is for

(Thieves) Worth wisps: I may have missed something - where is the proposed change documented? Is it on one of the boards?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: instead of removing things, you should add them, that's the way to a happier playerbase in general

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: if you're not interested in those things you stay NPK

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Well I guess you can get rid of that warning when you apply for playerkilling and replace it with "warning, once you become a playerkiller you cannot go back. However, nothing will really change so don't worry about it."

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well Thrakkozz, the rules of PK isn't something you simply add to or remove from, it's always just Change.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: it's a bit behind the scenes Worth, see the recent developments blog for info though

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: personally I went PK specifically to burglarize houses

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Worth : The upcoming change isn't documented, its come about because we were wondering the motivations of recent changes and where it leads.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Stealing from people is the only thing left in this game that I enjoy.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Oh, Drakkos, would you ever get rid of that 'mud commentary' blog so the in-game syntax is easier to use?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I also went PK for some similar reasons

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Why would people go PK? To hurt eachother. If you want to spar and have fun, there are arenas for that sort of playtime.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's true, sorry - it's been knocked about so much behind closed doors I forgot to present it to you guys when part of it actually went live.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Please?

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: I wouldn't, for I have no opinion or input into DW development any more.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Which is why you're here.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Oh, he's here to watch the drama ;p

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Oh, I know that!

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: he's hear to drink the sweet sweet tears of rage

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: I am here to enjoy suffering, for I am essentially, at the core, a very nasty person.

(Thieves) Lanore wisps that she perks up

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: Drama?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: Oh do go on.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Wow, where have YOU been Lanore ;p

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: No Drakkos, you're just misunderstood.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I don't perceive this as drama. Obviously people are opinionated about their characters as they've invested so much time, but so far I think its been a very civil and reasonable discussion. I'm proud.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: if you asked the people I have sold back items to that I took from playerhouses I don't think you'd find a single unhappy person

(Thieves) Smile wisps: If <someone> gets a server for it, can we have all the files?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: Work, unfortunatly

(Thieves) Worth wisps: One think I've learned the hard way is that making fundamental decisions that affect a large number of people behind closed doors does nothing but fuel suspicion and resent

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: i went pk for the same reason as akaishi. as a prowler, these's no fighting skills to speak of to bother trying to take other pk's head on. it was all about the stealing.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: also ask the people who killed me for doing it

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: they enjoy the hunt

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I agree Faye - usually these kinds of discussions are a lot angrier, it makes a pleasant change ;p

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: I can fix that.

(Thieves) Faye wisps that she hugs the guild, channel and temporary visitors.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Well then Drakkos don't go PK because it's not meant for nasty people like you, it's meant for people who like to hug eachother and sing Kumbaya.

(Thieves) Ruse wisps: we've downgraped shoes, Lanore

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: ....

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: It sure is

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: What?

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Maybe it will make me a better person.

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: How do you downgrap shoes..take an inch off?

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: The option should be made available to thieves to un-PK themselves.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: All I have in my soul is the will to grief. :-/

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: That's circumcision, Lanore.

(Thieves) Sprynx wisps: You may have just removed the reason some people went PK in the first place.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: A lot of us can't compete in fights tbh

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Thieves can steal from people and deprive them of their items, that is what discourages people from picking randoms and spars on thieves. Filch weapon, w, w, w, w, drop weapon, bury weapon, he's not coming for another shot.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: We can only steal from most other PKs

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: you've been downgrapped from a two inch heel to a kitten heel

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: makes no sense

(Thieves) Ruse wisps: Correct, Sprynx. to grief

(Thieves) Worth wisps: has there been an inclusion discussion on the possible solutions to the problem? I assume the age old suggestion of in-sewer-ants has been raised?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Quite possibly - I am certain almost any feature of the game has someone who bases their gameplay around it, so there will always be people affected by any change.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: It'd gimp us.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: seeing as how Safecracker specialisation doesn't get co.ma.st and isn't trained to steal from people, there is no PK aspect to the spec

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Faye: I don't intend to change that.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That exact tactic should still be entirely possible.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: therefore we become entirely NPK based

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Ruse: not only to grief, but also to be grofen.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: If i bury that item, though, he'll get it back right and proper?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Nope, he'll get it back - in due course.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: But not right away.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: So, again just to be clear, you're not doing this to make the game better for everyone, you're doing it to make the game better for everyone else, and worse for us?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: On a thursday

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And he'll have to pay for it.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I don't see how a temporary loss of an item is in any way a deterrent

(Thieves) Smile wisps: And the money goes to the thief who stole it?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, I'm making it better for theft victims. And as you're usually not in that category, then yes - but that's not the intention.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No Smile, they buried it ;p

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: But they could've sold it for money, yes.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: surely we could just steal and bury it as soon as they get it back

(Thieves) Smile wisps: So I can steal something from a PK, it will magically pop into the shop, then he goes to buy it and I get the cash?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Who sets the prices

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: So what exactly happens to the item if I steal it and just don't sell it back?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: Oh lovely lovely, new custom clothing, now I feel complete

(Thieves) Faye wisps: A little while ago Elera publicised her plans to rewrite the entire Pantheon, giving the priests new gods and new ethos that were realistic and better themed. The priests said no. The followers said no. The plan was scrapped.

(Thieves) Worth wisps: out of interest, which are these irreplacible, sentimental, objects?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's because I also said no, Faye ;p

(Thieves) Faye wisps: So why was the plan brought up?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: ..Who's Dasquian anyway, they of importance?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: we;re saying no and the only reason it's going through is because there's noone powerful enough to say different?

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Dasquian is an army of one

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because nobody stopped Elera going ahead with it until they did

(Thieves) Smile wisps: He's just this guy, you know

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: ..nobody stops anyone until they do.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Maybe you should fish for thank yous from the priests channel on this one dasq

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes, but that's why the plan was brought up (and then stopped).

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: I also am wondering what Smile asked. If I steal and item and don't sell it back, they can go to the shop and buy it and I get the money? Or if they go to the shop and buy it, do I not get the money?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: We're getting into the details of the plan now (which is cool), so brace yourself. Please forgive the IC trimmings, this is mainly abotu the mechanics.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: If we find someone with a ridiculously expensive item, and we keep stealing it off the and make buckets of money, surely that'd be griefing too?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: And this system does nothing to prevent that

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: So what happens is that person A steals an item - let's say gauntlets - from person B.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: *them

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Quiet Spontiff or they'll make it so you can't re-steal an item.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Is this in our outside AM

(Thieves) Ruse wisps: Yes it does

(Thieves) Smile wisps: or*

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Person B gets a receipt. He can either buy back his gauntlets in the guild, or make a deal with the thief, or kill the thief.

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: I'd say tiger fangs would be more profitable if anything

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Person A gets "the gauntlets", but they're not. He can trash them, make a deal with the victim, or sell them to the guild.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: oh good, we get no benefit other than a reason to get killed

(Thieves) Faye wisps: If the gauntlets are stolen outside AM, is there still a receipt?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: what happens if we choose to do nothing?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well,person B doens't have gauntlets.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Will other PKs still be able to put slips in if they take their items after killing us?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Given it's a mechanical solution - yes Faye, not sure what the IC dressing would be.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Hang on - so you're not removing the ability to destroy the item?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: That makes NO sense

(Thieves) Smile wisps: How is the receipt system going to work?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: so theres no more anonymous purselifting discwid?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, you can destroy the item, but the person can still get it back with the receipt.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Dasquian that didn't answer my question, if the victim goes to the guild and buys it, would the thief still get the money?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Money theft is left alone.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Most griefing thefts (and house lootings) weren't because the thief wanted the Stuff, just because the thief didn't want the OTHER person to have the stuff

(Thieves) Smile wisps: So you can't destroy it, ok

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: wait, what?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: say, what if we steal cash?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Destroyed |= ability to get back.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No Thunder - only if they sell the "gauntlets" they stole (which are more a proof of theft)

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: no anonymous clean steals?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I'm not intending to change anonymity.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: There's no reason the receipt has to have a name on it

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: so there'd be no point to destroying it, because they'd just get it back and there's no profit in it afterwards?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: That I like

(Thieves) Worth wisps: can I ask what problem we are trying to solve with this solution?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: so if you dont sell it to the guild or the owner, it just disappears from you in time anyway?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Why would anyone bother with the thief then. You don't actually think people are going to choose to talk to the guy that just stole something from him instead of going to the guild do you?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Taking and keeping an item from someone else.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: we're dictating morality, as far as I can tell worth

(Thieves) Worth wisps: and what solutions have been looked at and discounted (and why)?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: If you bury it then you're not doing anyone out of something they want to have and you don't want them to have

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, you can keep it as long as you like, but it's non-functional.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: But not being able to steal and keep is just daft

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And if the owner cashes in the receipt, it's entirely non-functional.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: they could just use another pair of gauntlets until their own popped back up again and wouldn't have to pay for it

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Oh, so you can just vault all the crap and it's like you buried it?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Ok dasquian, how do we stay anonymous if we have to approach the person to sell it back in the field, since we get nothing if they go to the guild

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: what if I put this non-functional item in my player house that is un-steal-from-able?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, the stolen item isn't real. It's not a cloned item.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Same way you usually do Thunder.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I'm sorry, but for a plan so long in the making, it's incredibly badly thought-out.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You fence it like you always used to, or you sell it back liek you always used to.

(Thieves) Worth wisps: just to be clear, the problem your trying to solve is: "Taking and keeping an item from someone else." ?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Or keep it and use it like we always used to d...oh

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: you won't sell it back though, you'll be killed instead.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Or we keep it for personal use like we always used t.. oh wait.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Pretty much, Worth.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Or you use it, because that's why you stole it... oh wait

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Why deny us that?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Sorry Thunder, but no - that's the one thing that goes.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I really can't understand why you're not getting rid of corpselooting if you're bringing in such a hugely radical change?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: but what about selling stolen items to someone else?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: that's a big part of theft

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because for you to have that item, they lose it. Which is what is changing.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Corpselooted items will still be real and usable?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: no fun if it just goes back to the victim

(Thieves) Worth wisps: I'm really surprised by that - I can undestand people not liking certain items being stolen, but the majority is just "commodity"

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Gragh - Why?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, that's stolen in the same way Smile.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: How does that work with non thieves corpselooting outside AM

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Again though Dasquian, if I just stole an item from someone I'm sure they'd rather go to the guild and pay a little extra knowing that the thief will get absolutely nothing out of it.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: If commodity gets stolen worth, you can still make money from it. Isn't that what commodity is for?

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: I think, if you steal something then they should take you to court

(Thieves) Lanore wisps: I find court fun

(Thieves) Worth wisps: ie, I'm not convicen I agree with your starting point, although I do agree with some of your approach

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I still haven't heard a single explanation as to why having items removed from you is Bad (TM). Only 'because I (Dasq) think it's griefing'.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: except *noone cares about cash*

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Which is opinion, not reason

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, you get something out of it too Thunder - you can fence the item on for money.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Got it, Spontiff.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: This is clearly a ploy to get us to spend all our money on contracts

(Thieves) Worth wisps: no - I think your missing a lot of the PK dynamic. Thieves don't just steal for money

(Thieves) Faye wisps: this plan seems to penalise cherry pick thieves. I steal from players items that I want to use. Weapons permits. Dex gloves. A stiletto.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Since it's the only way we'll be able to get back at people who screw with us

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Items never fence for what they're actually worth. What do gauntlets fence for? Because I can sell them to other players for 15 royals or more.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Inventory is time-consuming to acquire - not all of it, for sure - and being able to lose it so readily at the hands of another is an ENORMOUS potential for griefing.

(Thieves) Worth wisps: stealing darts to fire back at assassins etc is a very valid PK fighting mode

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: can I have an example of an item that takes time to aquire?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: If you make items fence for what they could be sold to another player for then fine. Also if the victim happens to beat you to the guild and turns in the receipt, can you still fence it, or is it a race to the guild?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's not a race - it's weirdly asynchronous

(Thieves) Venko wisps: Deluded item names take a hours and hours to get.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: they can actually get it back before you fence it, potentially.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I take it you aren't the only cre backing this?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: So it sounds like the thief doesn't get someone elses item. They get a clone of that item which is nonfunctional. Maybe just a "record" of that item. That they can do nothing with.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: not true faye!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: deludes is one example, but really just a variety of things is another. If you get looted and lose everything, you need to get that stuff back.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: you can sell it for cash that nobody cares about!

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Dasquian, if the victim turns in the receipt before the thief fences it, can the thief still fence it?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: The actual item goes into warpspace, and can be bought back by the owner. THe record of the cloned item can be fenced, or held onto for no purpose cos its not real.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And it's a pain - grief, if you will - that the thief has inflicted on you.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: except most people dont see it as a grief

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: its inconvenient sometimes, but usually just fun

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No thrakkozz, yes Faye that's right, yes Akaishi that's right but our broken economy is a different issue, yes thunder

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I've been a victim of item theft and it's not caused me to go wailing to admin, or my GM or whatever. I signed up to it when I read 'Help Playerkiller'. Am I the only PK who just accepted that this pain, or grief, was simply what I'd signed up to?

(Thieves) Worth wisps: the often suggested solution to this problem is in-sewer-ants for objects you "care" about

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: see I look at that and think "if you care that much about a game item maybe you need to go outside for a while"

(Thieves) Worth wisps: pay a premium and get your ability to reclaim the object (eventually)

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: and I'm a seriously immobile computer geek

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I think a disc-wide referendum is the only fair way to decide an issue this important

(Thieves) Worth wisps: after the thief is paid for it

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: wait, no to what? Don't tell me you are the only cre who agrees with this

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Sure I've never lost my entire houseful of crap, but don't think a blanket ban on item theft is the way to fix massive loss of inventory by one player.

(Thieves) Worth wisps: obviously at a premium

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: No, I'm not the only one who agrees with this

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Oh, okay :p

(Thieves) Smile wisps: I doubt you're in the majority of total players in agreeing with it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Not that it matters since I am like some kind of god amongst men. Some kind of titan of power.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: IT doesnt matter, because most cres high up never play as players.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Your perception is wrong.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: They say he never walks upon the ground!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Look, of course you guys are complaining. you get stolen from the least and get to keep most of the items!

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Where his feet touch the earth, flowers grow.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: is burglary coming back in Das?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: one or two of us have alts, dasq

(Thieves) Wolphen wisps: what about utilizing an entire sect of the thief's guild that's been overlooked? what if pk-stolen items can only be fenced through smugglers?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, not in a way that results in you taking items, no.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Oh dear

(Thieves) Anouk wisps: I've spent the majority of my time playing different guilds and I still think it is stupid :P

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Sure, I'm all for cool ideas like that Wolphen.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: how do you burgle without taking items?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, you can still have gameplay that involves breaking into a house and turning a profit, in xp or whatever.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: This "receipt" or proof of theft that we get in palce of the item, will it have the same weight and dimensions as the actual object, or just a piece of paper?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: from playerkiller houses?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You know, the sort of things you guys say you want to do as thieves

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: or just npc stuff?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: the main effect I see of this is that it'll inject more cash into an economy that is already essentially infinitely inflated.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Thunder

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's the item, "wrapped up"

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Really Dasquian I'm worried that teh decision is being made by people who don't spend enough time as playerkiller characters to actually experience theft from either direction, if you just make an alt one day and suddenly get your pack swiped of course you're going to be furious because you didn't have the foresight to ward it. Its only by living and learning that you learn how to protect yourself and your things, and then losing the stuff becomes water off of a ducks back.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: (and no you can't unwrap it)

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: How much random PK thief actually goes on these days?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: When this comes out I'm going to spend all day sitting in the room where you buy back items and sit back and enjoy people coming to me all day.

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: *Theft. And how much is done by thieves..

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I think maybe you've spent too much time as a playerkiller.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Because sure - you know the tricks, you know how to get by.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I have been PK for three or four years, I've lost count.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Newsflash: it isn't a lot of fun when your pack gets swiped, even if it's because you didn't have the foresight and it was your "fault" and you "signed up for it"

(Thieves) Worth wisps: how to get by as a PK is easy - don't carry anything you want to keep

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: clearly what's missing is a strong support structure to help out the newbies!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And that's our game, and what we're asking people to play.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: The advice is there for people to listen to, we look after eachother here and I've seen them giving their newbies advice in teh assassins guild too. Keep a low profile, get some wards, don't get mad.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: if you will eventually be able to take items form houses under this new system, why is it out now?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: wait a minute, we DO have that!

(Thieves) Worth wisps: and you'll be surprised how easy it is to live a "commodity" lifestyle

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: It's fun for the thief though, Dasquian.

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: If theft is changed in such a way, I presume corpse looting will be changed also?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You're not Thrakkozz - I don't know why you think we're plannign to introduce a burglary system

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Exactly Thunder. That's the problem ;p

(Thieves) Smile wisps: This will turn every thief into an alt funding main characters in the early stage

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: yes Lexx

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: You said we would be able to burgle and make a profit and xp

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: Okeydokey.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes, I didn't say anything about items.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: will it be PK?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: aka, profit from PK houses?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: All I mean is: sure, why not have a burglary system that allows you to do burglaries and get xp/money

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Maybe, if it's fun

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: because I want to burgle players

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: here is the breakdown as far as I can tell: Dasquian: Thieves are a bunch of meany meanies and I don't like them, so I'm going to introduce sweeping changes mainly because noone can stop me.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: Everything should be stolen in the form of little burlap bags marked 'swag'

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I carry one of those

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Drakkos is the man with the reasonable policies

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Pretty much Akaishi. To me, you look like a bunch of football hooligans protesting that "it's all part of the game". Swings and roundabouts.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: making burglary completely NPC removes the fun out of it

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I've been stolen from, randomed, dragged, looted. Its the direction of the grain and goes a long way to reminding me to Not Be An Asshole, as it was 99% provoked.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Football hooligans?

(Thieves) Smile wisps: That's pretty offensive

(Thieves) Faye wisps: except the randoms, they'r just random.

(Thieves) Smile wisps: Especially considering the way huge amounts of other guild members act which are far worse than the majority of this guild IMO

(Thieves) Smile wisps: PKers rather

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: maybe if the other guilds had a community structure as strong as ours it wouldn't be an issue

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Quite possibly Akaishi, yeah

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so... maybe do THAT?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: So are you just picking on thieves because you don't like them and calling it "making pk enjoyable for everyone!" or will you actually be removing all the things from other guilds that people don't like, such as losing lives from inhuming.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: What. How?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Dasquian, if you were to open up the discussion to the entire playerbase, I'm fairly sure the demographic would still think its a dumb plan.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I'd just like to say that I've had far more PK interaction as a non-thief PK than as a thief PK (I mostly idle on this alt), and I prefer a PK world where my items can be taken, because it makes it more interesting.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: The other guilds have the capability for them, they just don't have the community.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Maybe that should be a debate for the pk channel

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: how is that our faut

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: fault

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Possibly Faye, because it's Change. And Change is bad, remember?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: We nurture our community.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: a discwide debate would be very good

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: It's not your fault Akaishi, it's to your credit.

(Thieves) Lexx wisps that he would not be opposed to a more friendly, grief free MUD - but is insure how to realistically achieve that.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Unfortunately the other guilds havemn't done as well.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: afk for kleenex, think i'm lactating.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: it's to our credit and we're getting punished for it

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Nah, it's not just because change is bad, it's because people might be able to see a stupid idea when it whacks them repeatedly in the face.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Other guilds don't have the playerbase? I'm pretty sure I've been inhumed before, and lost lives from it. I don't recall it being particularly enjoyable.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Or they might say it's a good idea

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: so the other guilds look at that and say "gosh we better not do that"

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: You'd have to ask them to find out, though, not just claim you know what they think.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: What? you're going off on mad tangents now ;p

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: have you met any players who like this idea btw?

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: I mean the whole idea, not just bits of it

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I'm saying that you guys have done a top-notch job in getting a really good community together, and I wish the other guilds did too

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: that's because the entire discussion has no basis in reality

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: Mad tangents? Here?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Nipples!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: I don't know why there isn't similar sense of nurturing in the other communities - probably because they have less to explicitly offer in the PK world.

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: I must say, I haven't gone PK because I don't really want the grief. But if there was no grief in PK, THERE WOULD BE NO POINT TO BEING PK.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: huh. Who has the power to give them more to offer?

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: Dasquian does!

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: He has the power!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Well, I'm drawing a distinction between "grief" in the sense of being properly dicked over, and being attacked, which can be fun.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And of course it's never my intent to affect that side of things.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: of course not, we're all warriors after all

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: Stealing is how we would attack people

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: We're THIEVES

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: But Dasquian is a destroyer. He is a leveller. He does not raise up, he smashes down. He is the dark side of the admin domain. See not his smile, or his crocodile tears, for he will devour you.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: We are now, Akaishi.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And you still can, yoinkles!

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Yes, and sometimes people enjoy that feeling of "Oh I've been grouped with no weapons for HOW Long? Haha, some sneaky git had them away."

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: if you bury it, they get it back

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: Yuh-huh.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: and you know what, when I'm busy, being attacked isnt fun. Remove it :p

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: You've got to admit, Dasquian, most of the players speaking out against this aren't exactly well-known griefers.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And you still can, Faye.

(Thieves) Drakkos wisps: They are secret grifers, outing themselves.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Yeah but I wanted to use the weapons I stole. Now I cannot.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Half the time I steal I give the items back because I'm bored, and I still think this is a terrible, terrible idea.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You will have to live with that, sorry Faye.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: No I won't.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: And really? You wanted to use those weapons, why?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Because I fight better with weapons.

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: That seems the dumbest part of the whole thing to me. How does the item suddenly lose it's ability? Why would a thief wrap up their acquisition, and not use it if it is useful?

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: Why not? What do you care?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Why don;t you have your own?

(Thieves) Faye wisps: I don't have access to the mud at the times the purchase points for those weapons are available, or the skills to access the purchase point.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: That's an IC concern Yoinkles, and therefore secondary.

(Thieves) Spontiff wisps: I don't *want* to drag someone's entire living room out of their house and bury it. If someone else does it, I believe the admin should look at it and possibly take action. But to remove the ability to take anything at all just punishes those who don't grief far more than those who do.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Or when I arrived at the purchase point, they were gone because of limited stock.

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: Question: Can we still steal cash?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: You can't seriously be telling me you never have any weapons Faye. that is just ridiculous.

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: why do you want to steal cash

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Yes Lexx, completely unaffected.

(Thieves) Lexx wisps: Awesome.

(Thieves) Anouk wisps: that's not what she said, Dasquain

(Thieves) Faye wisps: all of the weapons in my belt I don't remember buying.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: some of them are Moonlit Market weapons.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: So when you are on the way to buy that $1500 sofa and someone takes it...

(Thieves) Anouk wisps: she said she cant get to the point of purchase for that particular kind of weapon.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: OK, but with these changes you won't lose them either ;p

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: So as long as you have weapons... you'll have weapons?

(Thieves) Akaishi wisps: I have no combat skills, what do I need weapons for

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: "I rely on theft to get my weapons" seems liek a very weak argument, sorry.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Someone might loot my belt with weapons in it, then I will be on the prowl for replacements.

(Thieves) Thrakkozz wisps: Yeh, thieves dont 'buy' thing ya'know

(Thieves) Yoinkles wisps: Being a thief is the only reason I've ever played this game, because it's the most interesting implementation. The proposed change just... brings it down to the level of WoW. Yes. DOWN to the level of WoW.

(Thieves) Thunder wisps: You're ruining the pk aspect of the entire guild.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: OK well - I need to get some dinner now and I think we're going in circles now.

(Thieves) Faye wisps: Which brings me neatly onto: If someone kills me and loots my item, can I steal it back and will it be functional? I'd use steal because they bested me in combat before.

(Thieves) Venko wisps: Will consumables like healing tea become non-functional, too?

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Thanks for being patient with me, I know you're not happy but I do appreciate your civility!

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: Just to answer that - yes Faye, you can bring receipt and stolen item together to get the item back.

(Thieves) Dasquian wisps: So if you steal a "wrapped item" back, you are able to use that item again.